Pudelpointer coat - white with black

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Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby MI Girl » Mon May 25, 2020 10:29 am

I have the opportunity to purchase a PP puppy (my first) from Tall Timber Pudelpointers. The dam is black, sire is brown. Out of a litter of 9, there are 5 black, 3 brown, and 1 white w/ black. I can't find any history of other b/w PP and wonder if I should be hesitant. I am not interested in breeding him, just want a great hunting dog.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Sooty42 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:31 pm

Let me start off by saying I have no expertise on this subject. I assume all would probably be fine as long as that coloring isn’t associated with a recessive gene that is also linked to health issues. With that being said I noticed on their website that it mentioned there were 9 puppies born and the black and white one is not included in any photos. There is even a single photo that includes all 8 pups, but excluded the black and white one. Seems kinda fishy. Just speculation though, maybe they don’t want to field a bunch of questions about the coloring.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby orhunter » Tue May 26, 2020 9:39 am

Agree with Sooty.... Seems kinda fishy. Being that PP's aren't my breed of choice and I can't read a pedigree to well, someone who can might see something. My best guess is not all PP's have the same amount of EP in 'em. I'm thinking somewhere along the line, one or both the parents got a little boost in their pedigrees and odd colors are the result. If Bodo was involved somewhere, you can probably count on it. I could be way off base too.... I hope the pup is free. I'm surprised it wasn't immediately culled.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby ryanr » Tue May 26, 2020 10:06 am

GWP pup.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Densa44 » Tue May 26, 2020 12:52 pm

I guess that I should speak up, I'm a retired PP breeder, Camridge Kennels in Alberta Canada. Lets talk about you first. You are at least 50% of this dogs future, and it may be a very good dog, you may test the dog and depending on you and the dog, you both could do very well. It would be a shame not to have more good dogs as breeders. This dog will never be a breeder, and if I may say so the breed can use more experienced trainers and hunters to test dogs.

The second point is about the pup, it should never be registered as a PP.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Urban_Redneck » Tue May 26, 2020 2:00 pm

In the breed that interests me, dogs other than black and white are excluded from the standard. I had heard vague rumors of orange and white pups born, but had never seen or heard direct mention of births, no photos, never a mention of the recessive color gene, etc.

A few months ago, I learned of a litter that included orange/white pups (with black noses), I contacted the owner and she graciously shared what she knew and learned about the occurrence- in my breed it's attributed to an e/E gene that can be detected through a simple genetic test. They will test all their dogs going forward.

There are rumors and innuendo of the gene's origin and or introduction. Some attribute it to original, unknown foundation stock, while others point to "off the books" outcrosses by 20th century breeder(s) looking to spice up a tried line(s).

Even if your black and white pup is non conforming, he has all the potential of his litter mates, he just can't carry the paper trail forward. The breeder I referenced above will find good homes for the non-conforming pups like your pup's breeder is doing- a better destination than a dark hole in the ground beyond the garden.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby JTracyII » Tue May 26, 2020 3:22 pm

Can you share the pedigree names of the sire and damn or the pedigree of the pup in question? I am curious as to whether there is a specific kennel from Germany in the pedigree that is known to have attempted to recreate the PP a handful of years ago with standard Poodles and Pointers. This experiment was approved by Germany. The experiment did not go too well is what I am told, but a few dogs made it into the Gene Pool who tested well. There was a breeder I am aware of here in the states that produced a handful of dogs like this one and it had this Germany kennel's bloodline in the pedigree. That is where it is suspected to have come from.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby JONOV » Wed May 27, 2020 10:17 am

Densa44 wrote:I guess that I should speak up, I'm a retired PP breeder, Camridge Kennels in Alberta Canada. Lets talk about you first. You are at least 50% of this dogs future, and it may be a very good dog, you may test the dog and depending on you and the dog, you both could do very well. It would be a shame not to have more good dogs as breeders. This dog will never be a breeder, and if I may say so the breed can use more experienced trainers and hunters to test dogs.

The second point is about the pup, it should never be registered as a PP.

Densa, I have to ask...is your opinion that the dog doesn't share the same parentage as the rest of the litter, or that the neighbors dog jumped the fence and tied with the female?
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Densa44 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:34 am

The gene pool. My opinion of what happened wouldn't be worth much, I'm afraid. With DNA testing you may get much more valuable information.
The remarks about home made "out crosses" have been going on for a long time, even in Labs here in Alberta. The dog of choice was a German Shepard. The comment about Bodo is also true.

The rub is and it is a big rub, is with breeds that have a small gene pool, and certain breeders reduce the pool even further by breeding for traits other than hunting ability, the breed will not last long as a hunting breed. I give you the many examples that you can find in the show ring. PPs are not registered with AKC or CKC just for this reason.

As you can see that the system is far from perfect. Don't breed black to brown and don't breed unqualified dogs, is the best advice that I can give.

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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby SMAbby » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:41 pm

Why dont you breed Black to brown. I assume black is dominate. Is black frowned on?
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby orhunter » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:08 am

Densa... "Small gene pool." Is the PP considered to have a small gene pool? I never thought so because of the available imports but being on the outside looking in, I might have an inaccurate view of things. I think with Bodo, probably created his own small gene pool by alienating himself from most everyone else. I don't know what his resources were?

I think you used the term "outcrossing" incorrectly in you reference of Lab X German Shepherd. I've always understood the term outcrossing to mean the mixing of two completely unrelated dogs of the same breed. Mixing two dogs of different breeds is crossbreeding. Back breeding is what Bodo did by using an original foundation breed. When the first black PP's came on the scene I heard the comment, if you mix enough Labrador with anything, that's what you get. I don't think that applies to every black PP but like I said, being on the outside looking in, I might have an inaccurate view of things. If I were shopping for a Labrador, if it isn't black, I'm not buying.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Highlander » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:38 am

specific kennel from Germany in the pedigree that is known to have attempted to recreate the PP a handful of years ago with standard Poodles and Pointers.


How sure are you about this?
The modern poodle is not the same dog as it was back then. It is far far removed from it's original morphology, characters and abilities.

I have once asked a question, in this forum, regarding the relationship of modern PP and English pointers. I did a good internet search, in English and in German, and what I found out was they do cross the EP to PP, but the selection process is very tough. They pick more versatile type of an EP, sometimes black/white or brown/white. The last cross breeding was in early 90s as far as I remember.
The first generation offspring do not usually make it to the mainstream breeding stock and are kept separate. They all have to pass all the German tests and get evaluated in many ways.
From these pups they pick the best one and cross back to a normal PP. These pups are also get tested and selected.
And the third generation is the one that might go back to the mainstream breeding stock.

This is roughly what I read, though there was not much available.
Someone from the JGHV PP club may know more.

The similar case took place in the long haired club. They breed a male DK to a female DL in 2005. The offspring is still under monitoring and have been kept separate.

There are cases when a DL gives pup that looks like Large Munsterlander. It is very rear but did happen.
Once two pure bred Gordon Setter had pup that was white with black patches. yellow legs and one black ear. Basically it looked like a tri-color English setter.

As for the black / white color in PP. This might be some kind of "throw back" of genes or one of the parent has a GWP gene in the recent pedigree.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby jlw034 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:18 am

I think the bottom line is the puppy does not fit the breed standard for a PP. The breeder should demand spay/neuter in the contract and it should be well below the standard price. If you are buying a black truck, but the dealer gives you a black truck with white spots, do you pay full price?



I'm sure it will end up being a wonderful dog, but how the breeder handles it will be telling. I'm assuming this is the Ruby x Finn litter born May 6? The fact that the breeder doesn't include this puppy in the litter pic is very telling.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby orhunter » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:43 am

JLW: I think that single pup makes the entire litter (and parents) suspect.
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Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby mustad » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:06 pm

I would look at the sire, who is a german import and has been used in Germany as a stud dog. Look on the pedigree for Von Holstein which is a program in Germany designed to infuse additional genetics into the program. They replicate the Pudel x Pointer breeding and then allow the offspring to go through the breeding certification process. Not all breeders in Germany are on board with the idea, but it's an ongoing debate. Regardless, if you see the Von Holstein line on the pedigree, that is most likely the cause. If you are looking to breed, this isn't necessarily anything to be concerned about in considering this breeding. There are plenty of breeders both overseas and in North America that use dogs coming from these lines. If you aren't looking to breed, I would not shy away from this pup either.
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