GSP Lines

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

GSP Lines

Postby 4thehuntbirdz » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:07 pm

I am searching for a new addition to my hunting pack. I've decided I want to add another GSP. I know that everyone has their favorite breeders and there are many excellent choices across America. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any dogs locally that I'm interested in so I need to broaden my search to dogs I can't see in action. So in conducting my research I'm trying to look at pedigrees and am seeing some prevalent "lines" out there. The problem is, I don't know what characters or traits that are associated with these lines and/or prominent dogs. Here are a few that I see:

Hillhaven Hustler
Sharp Shooter
Jacob Westwind
Shooting Starr
Hege Haus
Pottsipien

How is one to make sense of it all? I'm called a few breeders and quite frankly they all say their lines do exactly what I need them to do! Any advice?

I'm a chukar hunter predominantly but chase pheasants too. This isn't my first GSP, so I know what I want. I'm looking for a 1) very livable dog for a family that has an off switch 2) an extremely cooperative dog that isn't too hard-headed (ease to train), and 3) a dog with lots of natural point and natural retrieve. I'm located in the NW.
4thehuntbirdz
Pup
Pup
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:54 pm

Re: GSP Lines

Postby Coveyrise64 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:03 pm

~
~
If you want a chukar dog this guy should be able to help you.
http://www.dunfur.com/

cr
VC TJ's Highfalutin Hawkeye MH, UTI R.I.P. 5/13/03-10/15/14

VC TJ's Miss Filson MH, UTI R.I.P. 5/13/03-10/15/14

Thunderhead's All Jacked Up R.I.P. "My Buddy" 9/9/09-1/27/14

"I'd rather train for perfection than fix the problems of mediocrity" ~ Me

"There are always going to be those who prefer to freeze in the dark rather than put forth the effort to light a fire." ~ Lvrdg07
User avatar
Coveyrise64
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:49 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: GSP Lines

Postby RowdyGSP » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:54 pm

If you are looking for a GSP with an off switch, might I suggest a Clumber Spaniel... well, it may not be great on chukar, but it will definitely have an off-switch.
"You have to be smarter than the dog to train it."
"A working dog is a happy dog."
"Semper Fi" HQ/11th
"Chukar: The first time you hunt them it's for sport. After that it's revenge."
RowdyGSP
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1399
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:27 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: GSP Lines

Postby flitecontrol » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:14 pm

From what you've posted, I assume you don't want a dog from field trial lines. Have you considered contacting the Deutch Kurzhaar (German shorthair) club? Not many field trial dogs there from what I understand.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: GSP Lines

Postby 4thehuntbirdz » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:39 pm

I currently have a GSP with an off switch now with lots of NAVHDA lines. I'd go with the same thing again, but my dog for whatever reason isn't 1) a great retriever and 2) sometimes has issues with running chukars, meaning she puts her nose down and scents slowly while they run off and she has a hard time tracking them and pinning them down. Almost like she needs to hunt with a higher nose or something.

So I believe in the GSP and really like the breed.

Any insights on what characteristics go with certain lines?

What characteristics do the DK generally exhibit?
4thehuntbirdz
Pup
Pup
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:54 pm

Re: GSP Lines

Postby orhunter » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:26 am

I think you need a good Griffon..... not from the NW.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: GSP Lines

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:45 am

4thehuntbirdz wrote:What characteristics do the DK generally exhibit?


Here's their site: http://www.nadkc.org/index.html

For one thing, they haven't (illegally) been souped up with big running field trial English pointers as many GWP lines have, and testing is required before a dog can be bred. If you're interested, contact them and see if there's a member or breeder close to you. Maybe they'll let you come out and examine their dog(s).
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: GSP Lines

Postby ryanr » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:39 am

flitecontrol wrote:
4thehuntbirdz wrote:What characteristics do the DK generally exhibit?


Here's their site: http://www.nadkc.org/index.html

For one thing, they haven't (illegally) been souped up with big running field trial English pointers as many GWP lines have, and testing is required before a dog can be bred. If you're interested, contact them and see if there's a member or breeder close to you. Maybe they'll let you come out and examine their dog(s).


Pointers are in many GWP lines? Really? GWP? I doubt that very much.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: GSP Lines

Postby JONOV » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:44 am

ryanr wrote:
flitecontrol wrote:
4thehuntbirdz wrote:What characteristics do the DK generally exhibit?


Here's their site: http://www.nadkc.org/index.html

For one thing, they haven't (illegally) been souped up with big running field trial English pointers as many GWP lines have, and testing is required before a dog can be bred. If you're interested, contact them and see if there's a member or breeder close to you. Maybe they'll let you come out and examine their dog(s).


Pointers are in many GWP lines? Really? GWP? I doubt that very much.

I think it was a typo since the thread is about GSP's...

My .02 on the DK's: IF you aren't buying something from AFTCA lines (Rawhide's Clown, etc) they're not a whole lot different than your average GSP, assuming you've done your homework and not bought one off of craigslist. They certainly don't inherently work closer, nor are they calmer. Some do, some are heavier in conformation. Again, not a criticism of them, but the whole "The Germans breed a better or different dog than the Americans because they foudned the breed and have always done it the same way" is a great example of a logical fallacy, Appeal to Tradition. And GSP's are popular enough that there are plenty of health tested dogs with documented performance titled parents.
JONOV
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: GSP Lines

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:17 pm

ryanr wrote:[quote=

Pointers are in many GWP lines? Really? GWP? I doubt that very much.


Sorry, senior moment. Meant GSP.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: GSP Lines

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:26 pm

JONOV wrote:My .02 on the DK's: IF you aren't buying something from AFTCA lines (Rawhide's Clown, etc) they're not a whole lot different than your average GSP, assuming you've done your homework and not bought one off of craigslist. They certainly don't inherently work closer, nor are they calmer. Some do, some are heavier in conformation. Again, not a criticism of them, but the whole "The Germans breed a better or different dog than the Americans because they foudned the breed and have always done it the same way" is a great example of a logical fallacy, Appeal to Tradition. And GSP's are popular enough that there are plenty of health tested dogs with documented performance titled parents.


I started with GSPs and they were nothing like the two "GSPs" I've seen that have the pronounced brow stop, short muzzle, and white/tricolor coats characteristic of EPs. My dogs were cooperative, adjusted their range to the cover, loved to retrieve, and had great noses. I didn't detect any of those characteristics in the "GSPs" that clearly had EP in them.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: GSP Lines

Postby RowdyGSP » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:27 pm

The DK I had which did have some Hege Haus lines in his Ahnentafel, was one of the most wound for sound dogs I've met. Most field trial shorthairs had more of an off switch than he had.
"You have to be smarter than the dog to train it."
"A working dog is a happy dog."
"Semper Fi" HQ/11th
"Chukar: The first time you hunt them it's for sport. After that it's revenge."
RowdyGSP
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1399
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:27 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: GSP Lines

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:36 pm

I have a buddy who has several dogs with the HHHustler line in them. I have hunted with his dogs and been in his house with them as well. Very reasonable and nice dogs who do their job well and are easy to live with in the house is my observation.

I have seen the Sharpshooter and Shooting Star line dogs at NAVHDA events for a long while and I like them too. I know several folks with those lines whose dogs live in the house with them and they say they have a good off switch. I have not seen it first hand but expect it is true. I know they kill a bunch of wild birds and waterfowl of all types with their Sharpshooter line dogs.

I know several other folks who have the Jacob Westwind line in their dogs and I think they are a little hotter running type of dog. The folks who own them love them for that reason.

DKs and GSPs both show a good deal of variation depending the line you are looking at.

I have seen DKs which were as big as a pony and very German like in their appearance, demeanor and performance. Not my kind of dog at all. I saw 6 DKs at a rattlesnake avoidance training day this past summer that you could not have told any difference in them from a Sharpshooter line dog based on their appearance and demeanor but I did not see the dogs on birds that day. Their owners have specifically gone after DKs which are different than the giant liver DKs I also mentioned. So it appears even all DKs are not created equal these days as some US influence creeps in ...

I expect you can find an excellent prospect in all four of the first four lines you listed. I have zero experience around the other two. The sire and dam of the litter will provide the best information. If can you get your eyes on those dogs working and not working you will get the best information possible.

Attending trials, hunt tests, NAVHDA, training days are all excellent opportunities. Many folks stake their dogs out while not working them and it provides good information on the dog's off switch. Does it relax or the opposite? And of course seeing the dog working is great information. After asking first, going up to the dogs and seeing how they react to strangers is good information. Hard to beat first hand observations.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: GSP Lines

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:17 pm

Since we are talking examples, here are mine. The first "GSP" was a solid liver bitch that could have passed for an EP with a different coat. Her name was Sue Sweet Sioux, but I don't know what kennel she was out of. Her owner gave her to me when she was a couple of years old because he was moving and couldn't keep her. He knew I had a GSP, and offered her to me. She looked very little like my shorthair. She always ran full speed, which frequently resulted in outrunning her nose and busting birds. You could see her hit the brakes when she winded the birds, but often couldn't stop in time. That said, one time when a group of us were hunting quail, four dogs including my GSP, an EP, and a couple of setters. ran past a spot that when she got to, she pointed a single that none of the other dogs smelled. It was the only memorable hunting moment I remember while I had her. She was cooperative and had a sweet disposition. But she couldn't hold a candle to my male GSP, which is why I gave her to another quail hunter.

The second "GSPs", coat was white with liver plates and, like Sue, had the body of an EP. His owner and I were quail hunting in Oklahoma. I had a young GWP, and it was his first hunting season. When we turned the dogs loose the first day, his dog took off like a shot and mine followed. They went about 500 yards with my pup struggling to match his speed, turned, and headed back our way. When they got to us, my dog checked in with me while the other dog never paused and proceeded a similar distance in the opposite direction at top speed. My dog looked at me, then the dog that seemed intent on becoming a dot on the horizon, then at me again, and stuck near me. My buddy's dog was often out of sight and when he did point birds, more often than not, he would bust and chase them before we could get close. We killed more quail over my inexperienced dog than his, which had several seasons under his belt. When we got into our sleeping bags, his dog joined him. It was well behaved in the house and didn't make any noise or get up all night AFAIK. He made a nice pet, but if he had been mine I wouldn't have kept him. Hunting with him was an exercise in frustration all three days we hunted
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: GSP Lines

Postby RowdyGSP » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:04 pm

flitecontrol, you are definitely right about the variations in shorthairs. Now that I have some time to write, I'll share my own personal experiences. I was raised with 3 female shorthairs over the course of my childhood. 1 was a DK( The DK was bred by the late Joe Nadeker but I don't know the lines.) the other 2 were NAVHDA. They were all very good hunters. The only dog I know what lines she came from was a Shooting Starr dog of NAVHDA lines. She was by fart the best pheasant dog I ever hunted over. Not the best duck dog at all. HATED the water. My dad force broke her to get her to retrieve ducks for him. She showed him that she wasn't happy about being asked to go in water, but she'd do it. She was a great chukar and hun dog as well. Would range out to 200 yards (which was big for her) on chukar and huns, while working nose to the ground within 50 yards on roosters and quail in the thick stuff. The other 2 dogs (the DK and the other NAVHDA) were great waterfowl, pheasant and quail dogs although they never hunted open country birds like chukar, huns, sharptails. All 3 of those females had off switches in the house big time. They would also be just as happy to sleep outside in their dog houses in the summertime.

As for the dogs I have personally had, which has been 1 DK and 1 field trial GSP and 1 GWP. Rowdy is my GSP. He's 7 years old, unneutered male. Took him until he was about 3 years old to kind of finally settle down in the house. He wasn't out of control, but he was definitely never really sitting still except at night, after 7 PM. Just an active and vocal dog. Still is very vocal but since he turned 3 he has an off switch (most of the time) in the house. Will he get wound up in the house? Yes. But is it ever out of control? Absolutely not. He is very vocal and will whine a lot, which can get annoying. But mostly he's pretty good in the house. Right now it's 6:30 PM and he has been just curled up on his dog bed at my feet for the last hour and a half. He is a very social dog and loves most people. Very, very attached to me and wants to be with me all the time, but when I leave him alone in the house for 10 hours every day while I'm at work, he pretty much spends it just hanging out on my bed or down in the living room looking out the window. Hunting he will do anything for me. Hunt upland in any weather conditions, from -20 degrees to 85 degrees. Literally. He does better in the cold being a bigger running dog in the open country and a naturally closer dog in the thick stuff. Waterfowl he will do in almost any conditions. Single digits and up he is fine and will retrieve anything for you. Around zero or below zero and he gets cold enough that I stopped hunting with him in those conditions. A shorthair just ain't meant to have water retrieves in certain conditions. He is really good on the all 11 species of upland birds he has hunted. He excels at huns. He is a hun specialist. But a damned good dog on chukar, sharpies, mountain quail, valley quail. He's good on grouse too but not quite as good as the others. Pheasant he is a phenomenal and deadly dog on them about 75% of the time. When he is on his pheasant A-game which is most of the time, he is great on them. The other 25% he can get a bit wound up on them and can track them a little too fast a little too eagerly and cause them to bust. He is a better pheasant dog where there aren't a ton of pheasant in the area. If there's just a handful in the area, he will find you birds. If it is an up year on the prairie, he's gonna get a little too excited by all the running birds.

My other dog Tygh was my DK and I had him for 3 years from the time he was a puppy until I lost him to bloat. He was a phenomenal hunting dog, great nose, mostly a ground tracker but would air scent when in the open country, which made him great on chukar as well as pheasant. He loved retrieving birds. Loved the water. Great duck dog and great upland dog. Was very fur sharp and would track deer more than I liked when we were bird hunting. But he would find pretty much any bird you shot. Only think I lost 1 or 2 upland birds over him and maybe twice as many ducks in his 3 seasons. If the bird went down, chances are he would bring it back to you. He did have a naturally VERY hard mouth and I had to force break him for that reason to teach him what a proper hold was. Retrieving was no issue. It was the hard mouth that was an issue at first. As for an off-switch. About the only time he had an off switch was in the truck. He was a great truck dog. In his crate or on the passenger seat. Usually he would ride shotgun on the passenger seat on hunting trips or road trips or trips to the store. But I'd put him in his crate sometimes too and he'd do the same thing in both spots. Curl up in a ball and go to sleep and not make a peep until you stopped the truck and turned it off. Rowdy to this day is a PIA in the truck unless he's in his crate. But Tygh had that off switch in the truck. Not as much in the house. He was wound for sound from the time he was a puppy until 3 years old when he died. Maybe he would have calmed down later, but he was one of the more wound up dogs in the house I ever knew. He'd chill out at night but even then sometimes it took him a while. He was one of the most stubborn dogs I ever have known, and was also one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever known... which made for a frustrating combination. An absolute Houdini. Escape artist. Would chew through chain link fence to escape then just sit right outside his dog kennel and wait there. Never went anywhere. It was as if he was saying you can't control me. He'd climb fences that weren't roofed. Dig out of anything. He was a troublemaker and was as stubborn as a hound. However he was also one of the sweetest dogs around people and kids. He loved all people and really loved kids. Was just a great dog in that regard. But if it wasn't a person or another dog he wanted to kill it. You talk about SHARP.

I think a female shorthair from a mix of NAVHDA and some field trial lines thrown in would be a good dog for you. I might talk to David List of Horizon GSPs if I were you. He has shorthairs that I think are about as good as they come. Same can be said of Cheryl Aguiar of Outlanders GSP.
Last edited by RowdyGSP on Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"You have to be smarter than the dog to train it."
"A working dog is a happy dog."
"Semper Fi" HQ/11th
"Chukar: The first time you hunt them it's for sport. After that it's revenge."
RowdyGSP
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1399
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:27 pm
Location: Idaho

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: robshed and 3 guests