Prey drive

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Prey drive

Postby Stretch » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:29 am

A couple of guys I hunt with have drahthaar and they say my dog doesn’t have near the drive there’s do. With that being said I just got 112 score on NA test and neither of them got got a prize 1. But they are judging drive by the speed there dog hunts and by the ranging they do. To me that isn’t so much drive as it is personality and difference in breed and dog. My Griffon is picking up everything they miss and getting just as many points if not more and not bumping birds nearly as many birds. And when it comes to tracking my Griff will slow down and is not overrunning his nose. So how can they say there dog has more drive because it hunts faster and ranges more. With that all being said how do you judge how much drive a dog has? To me a dog with drive is one that’s is completely wore out but won’t quit unless you make him or her quit.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby orhunter » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:31 pm

Your pup's NA score might have indicated more drive had you gotten a 3 (or a 2) in cooperation. A dog with a bunch of prey drive isn't always the most cooperative. The dog's range may be another indication of prey drive. It's more about the individual dog than breed. My last Griff would possibly have run circles around a lot of Drahthaars. Prey drive has nothing to do with the number of birds found. It's more about the effort a dog puts into the search when there are no birds to be found. This is where training can mess up a good search if a dog gets used to finding birds every time it hits the ground.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:42 pm

Drive and ground speed aren’t necessarily the same thing. A dog can run circles and never find a bird. A meticulous dog that leaves nothing untouched and puts birds in the bag can have more drive without looking like a greyhound.

I’m also not a believer that drive and cooperation are mutually exclusive, it’s just very difficult to breed for both and have plenty of both to balance a dog.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby JONOV » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:07 pm

Stretch wrote:A couple of guys I hunt with have drahthaar and they say my dog doesn’t have near the drive there’s do. My Griffon is picking up everything they miss and getting just as many points if not more and not bumping birds nearly as many birds. And when it comes to tracking my Griff will slow down and is not overrunning his nose. So how can they say there dog has more drive because it hunts faster and ranges more.


The answer is that they have drank too much German Koolaid. If their dog attempted to breed a porcupine they’d play it off by saying “they’re bred not to shy away from fur,” or alternately attribute the behavior to trying to breed back to the stichelhaar motherlines.
It’s the same broken thought process that excuses dogs that can’t be trusted around other dogs. “It’s the prey drive, they won’t tolerate Ill mannered yapping dogs.”
It’s the same broken thought process that has them on Facebook making fun of labs.
If you chose to argue they’ll likely fall back on the JGHV testing and breeds standards, which will rigorous, don’t favor a dog with an all age race...but since you can’t test your dog there unless you imported it, it’s a point you’ll never win,

Just say, hmm, and shoot more pheasants.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby JONOV » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:34 am

orhunter wrote:Your pup's NA score might have indicated more drive had you gotten a 3 (or a 2) in cooperation. A dog with a bunch of prey drive isn't always the most cooperative. The dog's range may be another indication of prey drive. It's more about the individual dog than breed. My last Griff would possibly have run circles around a lot of Drahthaars. Prey drive has nothing to do with the number of birds found. It's more about the effort a dog puts into the search when there are no birds to be found. This is where training can mess up a good search if a dog gets used to finding birds every time it hits the ground.

By that measure, wouldn't an all-age pointer be the "king" of prey drive?

I just don't think run or range has much to do with it.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby Urban_Redneck » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:26 am

Excuses for poor test scores are like .... everyone has one.

My friend has a now 3 y.o., Griff that began the season working close. Throughout the season he stretched out further and further. He feels his dog was just slower mature. That Griff is a dog most anyone would be proud to own and hunt.

Your dog and you earned a Prize1, that's all you need to know.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby orhunter » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:51 am

JONOV:

That's just it. Hard to put a finger on how prey drive is demonstrated. Everyone has a different take on what it is.

Pointer vs Griff... That Griff I brought out from Wisconsin back in '09 was paired with a pointer for a day of Chukar hunting, both wearing tracking collars. At the end of the day when distance covered was compared, the Griff had covered more ground than the pointer. So in a sense, you're right. Range in its self may not be a true indication of prey drive. But what a dog does once it gets out there is. How determined the dog is to produce birds. Is the dog hunting or just running. The powers of observation, knowing what you're seeing is the key.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby JONOV » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:18 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:Excuses for poor test scores are like .... everyone has one.

People get really competitive about something that wasn't meant to be a competition, per se. And its one thing to blame the conditions, the rules, etc, but really its kinda crappy to criticize another mans dog. Every single breed and every testing and competition venue has shortcomings (or more dogs that exhibit one shortcoming than the average) in one way or another, and they all fall victim to groupthink, Koolaid drinking, whatever, to a certain extent.

Sometimes I think the prospect of a stacked ranking is what keeps them away from a venue where they're ranked on really subjective things (like a Field Trial.)

Is Jerry Rice a "better athlete" or "more competitive" or "more driven" than Michael Jordan or Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps? Its kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

If you want to turn it into a basketball game go compete in NSTRA.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby LongHammer » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:56 pm

Most of these human ego problems can be solved by a couple of coyotes in foot hold traps......
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Re: Prey drive

Postby booger » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:08 pm

Stretch wrote:A couple of guys I hunt with have drahthaar and they say my dog doesn’t have near the drive there’s do. With that being said I just got 112 score on NA test and neither of them got got a prize 1. But they are judging drive by the speed there dog hunts and by the ranging they do. To me that isn’t so much drive as it is personality and difference in breed and dog. My Griffon is picking up everything they miss and getting just as many points if not more and not bumping birds nearly as many birds. And when it comes to tracking my Griff will slow down and is not overrunning his nose. So how can they say there dog has more drive because it hunts faster and ranges more. With that all being said how do you judge how much drive a dog has? To me a dog with drive is one that’s is completely wore out but won’t quit unless you make him or her quit.




I'd agree with your idea of drive is not quitting. Or if the dog is working the whole time, the range and speed don't matter in terms of a score for desire (if you want a definitive answer, the AIMS book says the same thing).
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Re: Prey drive

Postby Stretch » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:41 pm

It’s interesting to see how everyone views what they call drive or don’t call drive. At the end of the day it’s whatever fits your style of hunting and what you want to see out of your dog. I personally don’t think a dog has to run 100mph and range non stop as long as he’s producing birds and loves doing it. My dog loves chasing/catching cripples, his intensity goes up 10fold when he gets after a cripple. It’s gets me going just watching.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:44 pm

Some areas of Hunt Tests are more subjective than others.

Retrieve of shot bird - the dog either does it or it doesn't. Same with Steadiness, Heeling, Drag/Retrieve.

Search, Desire to Work, Cooperation, is where more subjectivity comes into play in the Judging is my observation, and it most certainly varies between Judging teams.

I have read the AIMS document many times, it is very well done and excellent information. I have seen slow plodding dogs in UTs scored down in Desire to Work and Search and agreed it with. I think a dog working in that manner is not going to produce as much game as a dog which is more active and focused on finding game.

I have seen numerous dogs which ran to be running and were not as effective as dogs that were hunting vs running. But I do tend to equate some degree of speed and willingness to range out according to cover conditions with prey drive. I agree that a dog continuing to hunt hard under conditions where not alot of game is being found is a key element of prey drive.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby jlw034 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:01 pm

IMHO range and speed =/= to drive and desire.

Drive and desire applies to all hunting breeds. I know lots of labs that hunt in shotgun range but have drive through the roof.

I also don't think a wide ranging dog is always better than a closer working dog.

I.e.: My UT test, we were the 2nd team. The first dog (who I train with, and would LOVE a puppy out of) runs HUGE. She tears up the field. Beautiful to watch. But after her 30 minutes in the field, Lena found two dead (previous day's) birds that she missed, despite us running the same smallish field. Lena is without a doubt a slower, more methodical hunter, but that's not always a bad thing.

You hunt your dog. Let them hunt theirs. It is what it is, enjoy it.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby JONOV » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:46 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Some areas of Hunt Tests are more subjective than others.

Retrieve of shot bird - the dog either does it or it doesn't. Same with Steadiness, Heeling, Drag/Retrieve.

Search, Desire to Work, Cooperation, is where more subjectivity comes into play in the Judging is my observation, and it most certainly varies between Judging teams.

I have read the AIMS document many times, it is very well done and excellent information. I have seen slow plodding dogs in UTs scored down in Desire to Work and Search and agreed it with. I think a dog working in that manner is not going to produce as much game as a dog which is more active and focused on finding game.

I have seen numerous dogs which ran to be running and were not as effective as dogs that were hunting vs running. But I do tend to equate some degree of speed and willingness to range out according to cover conditions with prey drive. I agree that a dog continuing to hunt hard under conditions where not alot of game is being found is a key element of prey drive.

Good Point...In some ways, it shouldn't be hard to see that a dog is moving with purpose and alacrity. Like obscenity, its hard to define but you know it when you see it.
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Re: Prey drive

Postby STait » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:06 pm

orhunter wrote:JONOV:

That's just it. Hard to put a finger on how prey drive is demonstrated. Everyone has a different take on what it is.

Pointer vs Griff... That Griff I brought out from Wisconsin back in '09 was paired with a pointer for a day of Chukar hunting, both wearing tracking collars. At the end of the day when distance covered was compared, the Griff had covered more ground than the pointer. So in a sense, you're right. Range in its self may not be a true indication of prey drive. But what a dog does once it gets out there is. How determined the dog is to produce birds. Is the dog hunting or just running. The powers of observation, knowing what you're seeing is the key.


Perhaps the pointer was running bigger and standing on point much longer than the Griff?? No ground cover is counted while a bird dog stands on point..hehe.
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