Livestock insecticide tags?

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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby ForestDump » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:20 am

Good lord I don’t know how many times you’re going to say it’s your dog do what you want then throw in more of your 2 cents.

I’ve used the cow ear tags for large yards of dogs for years fine. Make sense when you’ve got a lot of heads on the yard. I wouldn’t on an inside dog.

As far as the ivermectin paste don’t use it. Use the injectable solution it’s more effective.
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:33 am

Yes MissKiwi, by all means please stop posting in this thread! The treatment experience of a trained professional who treats more dogs in a week than any of us will in a lifetime has no place in this discussion!
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:46 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:
AlaskaMagnum wrote:
Stretch wrote:AlaskaMagnum; I was thinking the same thing.
I have an ear tag on my 13lb patterdale and he’s had one on since he was 7 months old. Boy I hope he survives he 8 years old now. Lmao


No doubt there are better products out there, and my new puppy is and will stay on the new pills, BUT I'm a science guy and the fact is, permethrins (synthetic pyrethrins) are not very toxic to mammals. We evolved with them and metabolise them very efficiently.


And yet in practice I see about one pet a month react poorly to our generic advantix product, and have had only one reaction in 3 years to the isoxazolines (Nexgard, Simparica, Bravecto) as we carry all three. Thousands of doses in a 4 doctor practice and only ONE reaction. The difference in efficacy, the speed of tick kill, and the rapidly increasing risk of tick borne diseases make the difference between the two products astronomical.

Its your dog... and remember, it's not ONLY the drug reactions that you are risking... its the risk of tick borne disease.

We once thought pyrethrins were great because they were the best available at the time. They are significantly less effective than newer products now, and in my opinion obsolete technology. We only carry the generic advantix product because it's better than nothing in our area, but I often wish it wasn't an option.


A skin reaction is NOT toxicity. You know that if you're a vet.
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:33 am

AlaskaMagnum wrote:
A skin reaction is NOT toxicity. You know that if you're a vet.


Anything short of organ failure and death is "not a toxicity" but ya know... if it saves a few bucks...

Also keep in mind none of you are my clients, I've got nothing to gain by beating this horse. The newer products are more effective and have fewer side effects. The only reasons to cheap out are because you don't see the value in preventing tick borne disease, risk of tick borne disease is low in your area, you have more dogs than you can afford, or you are just plain cheap.
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:04 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:
AlaskaMagnum wrote:
A skin reaction is NOT toxicity. You know that if you're a vet.


Anything short of organ failure and death is "not a toxicity" but ya know... if it saves a few bucks...
.


That's not true either...
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby ryanr » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:01 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:
AlaskaMagnum wrote:
A skin reaction is NOT toxicity. You know that if you're a vet.


Anything short of organ failure and death is "not a toxicity" but ya know... if it saves a few bucks...

Also keep in mind none of you are my clients, I've got nothing to gain by beating this horse. The newer products are more effective and have fewer side effects. The only reasons to cheap out are because you don't see the value in preventing tick borne disease, risk of tick borne disease is low in your area, you have more dogs than you can afford, or you are just plain cheap.


So a few years ago when permethrin and other Pyrethroids were the best available were you telling your clients about your great concern for organ failure and toxicity, etc. and their innefectiveness at preventing tick-borne illnesses?

And from what my own vets have said, a tick needs to feed for about 12 hours in order to transmit enough antigen to infect the dog. Seems permethrin kills before that.

Anyway, I'm done with this, although I actually respect your opinion as a veterinarian and don't believe I've said anything derogatory to you. I'm doing what I have to do right now and I don't feel I'm risking my dogs in any significant degree. Feel free to keep calling me out for being cheap.
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:17 am

ryanr wrote:
So a few years ago when permethrin and other Pyrethroids were the best available were you telling your clients about your great concern for organ failure and toxicity, etc. and their innefectiveness at preventing tick-borne illnesses?

And from what my own vets have said, a tick needs to feed for about 12 hours in order to transmit enough antigen to infect the dog. Seems permethrin kills before that.

Anyway, I'm done with this, although I actually respect your opinion as a veterinarian and don't believe I've said anything derogatory to you. I'm doing what I have to do right now and I don't feel I'm risking my dogs in any significant degree. Feel free to keep calling me out for being cheap.


We dealt with the side effects because our only options were Frontline and Advantix. When dogs would react, our response was, and still is, "yeah, that happens, try this instead"

Frontline is even better for long-term efficacy, yet I've seen many dogs who contracted Lyme disease on both products. Simparica is the first and only product whose efficacy is good enough they will guarantee their product. If your dog catches Lyme on Simparica, Zoetis will pay for confirmatory testing and treatment.
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby ryanr » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:47 am

Well it's only been a few days but seems to be working well and the dogs don't seen to be having any negative reactions. I'll keep monitoring though because after an initial spike in tick activity we seen to have had another lull but warm temperatures are returning so...

Not looking to get into a debate again, I respect everyone's own personal decisions and views. Just thought I'd share how things are going in case anyone was interested.

My NAVHDA chapter's a week out from out annual May NA test weekend. After last year's cold, pouring rain for the weekend we're all praying and keeping our fingers crossed for at least seasonable temps and norhing more than a passing shower. Please help pray for us, last year was brutal for our test volunteers.
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:24 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Yes MissKiwi, by all means please stop posting in this thread! The treatment experience of a trained professional who treats more dogs in a week than any of us will in a lifetime has no place in this discussion!


+1 ](*,)
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Livestock insecticide tags?

Postby flitecontrol » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:25 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Are you really going to cheap out on your hunting buddy and use something designed for animals 10 times the size of your dogs? Too much and you risk toxicity. Too little and you are leaving them unprotected...


That's the same argument vets use to get clients to buy expensive, ineffective, heartworm medication. To sell those products, they have to be safe in all breeds. But collie type breeds are genetically susceptible to Ivermectin poisoning, the main ingredient in virtually all heartworm medications. So the manufacturers reduce the amount of Ivermectin in their product to a level where it's safe for all dogs. Trouble is, those levels don't kill all the worms, and many dogs develop heartworms. A much more effective heartworm preventative program involves administering liquid Ivermectin orally at a rate of 1/10th of a CC per 10 pounds of body weight per month. While this would probably kill breeds that are genetically susceptible, hunting breeds do fine, and they don't get heartworms! Liquid Ivermectin is sold to treat cattle and swine. I've bought generic Ivermectin online for $16/50 ML (1 CC = 1 ML); which is enough to treat my drahthaar for over four years! That's highly effective heartworm prevention for $4/year!

Yes, I'm cheap, but I also want my dog protected from heartworms. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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